Ukraine, Microfinance, and Mission Drift with Peter Greer and David Campaigne

In this episode, we have senior private wealth advisor from the Baltimore office, David Campaigne, with special guest Peter Greer. Peter is an author, speaker, and president and CEO of HOPE International, a global Christ-centered economic development organization serving many countries around the world. In this exciting conversation, they discuss how HOPE International has helped the people of Ukraine and the dangers of mission drift in a faith-based organization.

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Transcript

-Welcome to the Wisdom For Wealth. For Life. podcast. Let's bridge the gap between your faith and your finances. At Ronald Blue Trust we apply biblical wisdom and technical expertise to help you make wise financial decisions. Our goal is to help you leave a lasting legacy. In this podcast, you will hear inspiring stories, practical tips, and encouragement from the Ronald Blue Trust family with special guests along the way. Welcome to the Wisdom For Wealth. For Life. podcast. 

-The information in these podcasts is provided for general educational purposes only. It is not intended as specific individual advice. The client's experience may not be representative of the experience of other clients and they are also not indicative of future performance or success. Opinions expressed may not be those of Ronald Blue Trust.  

-In this episode, we have senior private wealth advisor from the Baltimore office, David Campaigne, with special guest, Peter Greer. Peter Greer is an author, speaker, president, and CEO of Hope International, a global Christ-centered economic development organization serving many countries around the world. In this exciting conversation, they discuss how Hope International has helped hundreds of Ukrainians and the dangers of mission drift in a Christian-based organization. Let's listen in now.
 
-Welcome to the Wisdom For Wealth. For Life. podcast. My name is David Campaigne, and I am a senior private wealth advisor for the Maryland office of Ronald Blue Trust. I am joined here today with a very special guest, my friend Peter Greer, and we are live in person at the Hope International headquarters in Lancaster, Pennsylvania in their Pathways Out of Poverty exhibit. So, welcome Peter to the podcast. Thanks David. Thanks for being here.

-All right. Well, let me give a little introduction for our listeners. Peter is the president and CEO of Hope International, a global Christ-centered economic development organization that operates throughout Africa, Asia, Latin America, and Eastern Europe. And prior to joining Hope, Peter worked internationally as a microfinance advisor in Cambodia and Zimbabwe and was managing director for Uaga Bank in Rwanda. Now, I know Peter's favorite role here at Hope is spending time with the entrepreneurs that Hope International serves. Whether that's harvesting coffee with farmers in Rwanda, dancing alongside saving groups members in Haiti, or visiting the greenhouses of entrepreneurs in Ukraine. And as an advocate for the church's role in missions and alleviating extreme poverty, Peter has co-authored over 10 books including Mission Drift, Rooting For Rivals, Created to Flourish, and hot off the presses a few weeks ago, The Gift of Disillusionment. Peter is a devoted husband to his wife Laurel and father of four children: Keith, Liliana, Miles, and London. 

 -And personally, I first met Peter in 2013 after hearing you and Jeff Rutt speak at an entrepreneur's conference in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and hearing you and Jeff Rutt, the founder of Hope share the stories of how Hope is coming alongside families in underserved areas of the world to break that cycle of poverty and restore dignity through Christ-centered microfinance. Peter it immediately captured me and it has been a blessing for me and my family to support Hope ever since. And shortly after that conference, I met with Peter and Laurel to start serving them in their financial stewardship and generosity journey as clients of Ronald Blue Trust. It was neat to learn right away Peter at the beginning of our friendship that we both have adopted kids into our families. That we are both PKs - preacher's kids – our fathers both serving as pastors, and once a PK always a PK. And Peter and I all are also Gen-Xers, born in 1975. So we are in that halftime season of life in our mid-40s now.
 
-Thanks David and I feel like after that, I need to say thank you. You have been a friend. You have been a guide for me and my family and you and the Ronald Blue Trust team have just provided exceptional service and friendship through our journey as well. So, thank you for who you are. Thank you for what you do. Just a privilege, yeah walk together in these important issues and conversations. 

-So speaking of headlines, Russia invaded Ukraine in early part of 2022 here and that is still dominating the headlines today as we speak. Peter, would you share with us the long-time connection that Hope International has actually had with Ukraine and the genesis actually of Hope International starting in the late 1990s was a connection with Ukraine. 

-Yeah, and it ties so clearly to what we were just talking about. It has been heartbreaking to watch what is happening in Ukraine, and In many ways just a couple weeks ago being on a call with our team. They are needed to flee their homes. They are now relocated to a place of where the offices temporarily set up in the west. They are there with their families in very cramped quarters. They're not the only individuals fleeing and I'm on a video call with them and then the air raid sirens go on and them and their kids have to go down to the bomb shelter. And that is what they’re experiencing right now living with that very real and present threat and then watching their nation under attack. And in many ways the progress that we've experienced that we've seen over the last number of years to see that just rolling back it truly breaks our heart to know what our brothers and sisters are going through right now. 

-But Hope International was founded in Ukraine and it was founded in a particular city in Ukraine called Zaporizhzhia, which is in the news right now. It is on the front where the fighting is happening right now.  Zaporizhzhia is really on that line and we still have staff and clients that are there right now in the midst of all of that. And again, it was a story of incredible hope and progress of what was happening in the early 90s after the fall of Soviet Union. There was an incredible economic depression and yet it was an opportunity for in the wake of the Soviet Union in the wake of the collapse of a system that wanted to get rid of God. It was an opportunity for the church to show up and that's exactly what our founder Jeff Rutt and a church here in and initially they ran towards it with food and supplies and rice and help build buildings, but after several years of that, the crisis the immediate crisis was over and Pastor Patranco said, "Would you help us? Would you help us out not with another handout, but would you help us with a hand up? Isn't there a way you can help us help ourselves?" and that really was the genesis of Hope International. The idea of continuing to bring the good news of Jesus, but to assist individuals with small enterprise with business, and helping them provide for themselves and their families. And so that Hope International was born in 1997 and the progress in Ukraine was incredible. Expanded throughout the country and saw so many individuals get out of poverty for them and their families to break that cycle of intergenerational poverty, and to see the church at the forefront of this. 

-And again, now to watch what's happening, to realize we are again in a situation where relief is needed. But to see the church once again, not turn away, but turn towards. To see congregations that are emptying out their churches from pews and putting in cots and responding to individuals that are fleeing. And what a privilege for Hope International and our 47 staff that are in Ukraine to respond now. To help in the midst of this crisis, and very soon I believe, it's going to be time for the rebuilding to begin and we're going to have the privilege of rebuilding with Ukrainian entrepreneurs and with the church, once again at the center of a story of responding with love and compassion to the devastation that we're witnessing as well.

-So similar to what we just said, there's so many stories about the attack, about the invasion, about all of the harm. The story that I want to elevate though is the story of courageous response by the church in Ukraine by Ukrainian entrepreneurs that are responding heroically and putting their faith into action by running towards the suffering. And Peter you talk about this I believe in Created To Flourish, that the growth of the early church after Jesus ascended into heaven where the church really grew was when people were, followers of the way, right and followers of Jesus were going where there was pain and suffering while the people of Rome were fleeing, and it just caused people to say, "What is this? Who does this?" Right? And part of what you were just sharing about Hope's story, I remember hearing you and Jeff talk about these things from a book by Dr. Robert Lupton called Toxic Charity. And, "Give once and you'll elicit appreciation. Give twice you create anticipation. Give three times you create expectation. Give four times it becomes entitlement. Give five times and you establish full-blown dependency." So there is this balance with generosity. We want to help, but when helping becomes enabling and someone becomes dependent, that's not a good place to be is that right? And that's what you all have found. You want to give a hand up, not a handout.
 
-Yeah, the ultimate aim of our generosity is to see someone no longer in need of it. Right? To ultimately see that they do not need the short-term provision. Aid should always be temporary. It should never be long-term and I think it actually dishonors the individuals that were trying to care and respond when we somehow would insinuate that they don't have what it takes. That's actually the lie of poverty. You don't have what it takes in a very paternalistic and pejorative way of looking at individuals that there are some that are objects of charity. They need to be the recipients and some that are the purveyors of provision. And I just think that's not true. I think that is a lie. I think every single individual created in the image of God has gifts and abilities that for far too long have been not recognized for what they are. Every individual having that ability to provide. 

-And when I travel around the world, I see individuals in incredible poverty. But I meet a mom who will do anything possible to provide for her kids. And I do not want to rob her of that opportunity to be the provider for her kids. I see those dads that want to have the gift of work. They don't want to sit back and receive from someone else and we want to equip, we want to support, we want to partner. We do not want to rob individuals from that God-given right to use their gifts and abilities to love and serve others. So, we believe everyone has something to give everyone has something to receive and I think it is far past time to recognize the gifts and abilities that maybe have just been hidden for too long and people in places of financial poverty. 

 -And we take it for granted right here in the United States. We have easy access to loans from the bank and savings in a safe place to save. And the places where Hope International you all serve that just is not there, but for organizations like Hope International for a safe place to save, hear the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ and provide. And for their families. Not just their families, but for the communities as well. And on this topic, you'll love this. I came across this quote a few years ago from Bono the lead singer of U2, which is a band that has had longevity. We grew up with them and they're still out there, right? But Bono said this, "I'm a rock star preaching capitalism.”
 
-Wow.
 
 -“Sometimes I hear myself and I just can't believe it. Commerce is real. Aid is just a stopgap. Commerce, entrepreneurial capitalism, takes more people out of poverty than aid." And that's exactly what we're just talking about and what Hope International does. So, I love that. In the terms of generosity, our firm verse that Ronald Blue Trust, the bedrock verse of our firm, from our founding in 1979 that continues through today is 1 Timothy 6:17-19, where the Apostle Paul is talking to his protégé Timothy, and it talks about instructing those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or put their hope in the uncertainty of riches, but to put their hope in God who richly supplies us with everything we need to enjoy. Instructing them to do good, to be rich in good works. Generous, ready to share laying up for themselves a foundation and a treasure for the future so they take hold of the life that is truly life. And I wanted to ask you, Peter, would you share with us some examples you've seen of generosity in your own life that's inspired your own life journey both personally and in your role as president and CEO of Hope International. Generosity the right way where it's not enabling somebody but it's allowing them to really flourish with blessings. It's not always material blessings either. There's spiritual blessings and other things like that. Would you have any thoughts to share with us where you've just seen that in your own life and maybe an example or two of just that have really inspired you in that area of generosity?
 
-Yeah, I am enormously fortunate, David, in my role that I see generosity all over the place. Yeah, you know I was talking to my son, Miles last night and we were talking about the classic, "What do we do with our finances?" We give, save, spend. Yep. If you do that, you will avoid so much heartache on that. And in that order. 

-Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. 

-And he made a comment about you know, he only has this amount and so he'll do that at a future point. So he's thinking through this. And I was sharing with him a story about some of the families that we get to serve around the world and about how generosity is actually not dependent and oftentimes not correlated with how much you actually have. And I have seen enormous generosity with those that have a lot of financial resources and I have seen enormous generosity by those that don't have as much. And in many ways, the widows might, the story that Jesus tells, we get to see that on a real basis. 

-But I was thinking of Leia and she is in Malawi. She was part of a savings group and ended up having a set of very difficult circumstances, but was able to enter into this community, was able to start saving together, able to start investing together, and her business started to grow. And then she diversified into a couple other businesses and then she ended up bringing orphans into her home on that. And then she ended up doing a well for her community. And you just look at the impact of that. She is someone who, yes had a story of business growth, yes of business success, but her heart of generosity and saying, "God you've given this to me, what can I do to use this to serve others?" And just the impact on her family the impact on her community, and she lives generously. And while the financial net worth, if you were to have her as a client, when you look at that sheet of how much is enough, hers is very different from ours. And yet, she is living with just incredible generosity. 

 -And so when I think about how I want to live, how our family, I want to grow more to be like the families that we serve around the world. That it's not some future state of when I have this amount, I will live generously. It's today. Everything that I have is a gift. So what's our family financial finish line and then what does it look like to live with open-handed generosity, and right now look for those opportunities. So I see Leia. And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, I see the founder of Hope International and his decision to essentially give away his company all of his net worth so that it goes into long-term philanthropy. I  think that is absolutely amazing. So it's the same spirit that Leia has, it's the same spirit that Jeff has, it's the same spirit that Jeff's kids have to understand, "You know, what we've been given this we've been entrusted with it for a reason. Let's do all the good that we can with what God has given to us." And that stewardship, that generosity that living with hands open instead of tight clenched fists, I see that around the world in communities of poverty. I see that around the United States and communities of affluence and I think it is that same spirit to say, "God you have given us what does it look like for us to live with open-handed generosity?" 

-I love it. Ron Blue, our founder, has some great quotes that I use so often that just resonate with me personally in my own financial stewardship and generosity journey as well as the clients that God has blessed me with the opportunity to serve. But Ron says, "Do your giving while you're living so you're knowing where it's going." And to follow up what you were just saying, Ron also said this in his 50-plus years of financial counseling, Ron's 80 years old this year. He said, "If I could boil everything I have learned into one sentence or thought it would be this - generosity and financial freedom are inextricably linked. If you want to replace fear, guilt, and frustration with freedom, confidence, and joy, you have to hold your treasures, your money, your possessions, your time, your talents all with an open hand." 

-And that's what you were just saying. And a side note that was really fun for me earlier this year is that without any coaching from you, your oldest son Keith reached out to me on email just to be a sounding board for him. An 18-year-old, budding entrepreneur, already has been an entrepreneur, the apple does not fall far from the tree. And Peter, I loved it because I feel in my role in our roles as advisors at Ronald Blue Trust, we want to educate folks in biblical stewardship and principles. We want to minister to them, disciple them, serve them. And the fact that an 18-year-old kid becoming a young man would reach out to a mid-40s man was very encouraging actually to me. And also I know Keith reached out to Jeff Rutt and just getting some feedback and expertise and insight from Jeff's experience as an entrepreneur and in business owner. And I love that. And then hearing about your son Miles. It's that generational aspect and we're teaching our own kids, but that has to continue on and keep being passed down generation to generation because if not, things can change right? You know? A couple generations down the road things can change. And what Jeff has done and some I think Alan Barnhart as well and some other folks, they've really put some parameters into place that will help them stay true to their mission as a family.
 
-We'll be right back with the rest of the episode. At Ronald Blue Trust we combine biblical wisdom and technical expertise to help you make wise financial decisions. If you are looking for financial advice or assistance, please contact us. You can visit ronblue.com for more information. Now back to the episode. 

-Couple generations down the road things can change. And what Jeff has done and some I think Alan Barnhart as well and some other folks, they've really put some parameters into place that will help them stay true to their mission as a family. And on that, I wanted to turn our conversation a little bit to talk about some key insights from one of your and Chris Horst's other books called Mission Drift. Been a favorite of ours at Ronald Blue Trust. The most important thing that drew me to wanting to work for Ronald Blue Trust when I started there in my mid-20s, was our mission statement as a company to help Christians become financially free to assist in fulfilling the great commission. As you and Chris share in the book, mission-true organizations know why they exist and they protect that core at all costs. They remain faithful to what they believe God is entrusted them to do and they define what's immutable, their values and purpose, their DNA, and their heart and soul. So I want to ask you, in the book you share this, but what causes organizations with a great mission statement when they start out to actually drift from that founding purpose and passion that's maybe not there in a generation or two?

-And I so appreciate the intentionality with which the Ronald Blue Trust says, "This is our mission and let's protect it." You can't spend time without hearing that core mission repeated, repeated, repeated, repeated and I just celebrate the way that yeah, there's so much intentionality. And we are blessed with leadership with Ron Blue who founded the firm, handed the baton to Russ Crosson and then a few years ago Russ Crosson handing that baton to Nick Stonestreet, our current CEO. And as you know, Russ is not going anywhere. He's our Chief Mission Officer. He is our Executive Vice President. He is as passionate and fired up about our mission as he was when he started in his mid-20s and that ripples down. I'm probably the third or fourth generation advisor in the firm now, and I had that same passion and Russ exudes that. But he talks about that too in one of his books, What Makes a Leader Great and why you exist as a leader. "You exist to replace yourself. You're only successful if you have a successor and it's not about you as a leader, right? It's about the mission of the entity you lead. You want to build followers and not fans. Jesus had both of them right? Followers are there with you through thick and thin. Fans, when the going gets tough, are out. And you only have a short limited amount of time in your role." So do you think about that? You're 18 years now of the 25 years that Hope's been in existence as president and CEO. So what are some things that you and your leadership team and Hope International are doing to obviously stay mission true as an organization, but they'll be some time right that you and Chris and the other leaders and same with myself, we'll exit stage right and it'll be up to it'll be the next generation. So some of those things that you all are doing at Hope to ensure that the fire keeps burning brightly, that Jeff as a founder started and handed to I think Thurman, to you, and where that goes in the future?

-Yeah, and you know working on Mission Drift there were a couple things that in the book were so clear. So clear. If you don't have clarity about what your mission is, you're going to drift. If you don't have intentionality in all of the small decisions, you're going to drift. And the reason why we love the word drift is because it's what happens without the active rowing. It's the natural way you're in the currents and you are going. And with drift you don't even know where you're going until you look up and say how did we get here? So, this idea of drift being pervasive and the number of organizations that in our research we found that had such clear and compelling missions and yet today are doing something that is almost unrecognizable from what they were created to be. I found it far easier to find examples of organizations that had drifted compared to those organizations that had not drifted. So I sure hope there's a wonderful study in another 50 years with the Ronald Blue Trust of passing that baton. And out of Mission Drift, you know, we did write a couple other books that came from that. One on board and CEO recognizing how important governance is and how little attention there is in actually developing a healthy governance as it relates to protecting your core mission. So did something here but the other one we did was a real quick book on succession. And that was the other piece that Dr. Paul Tripp has this line. He says, "The passions of the first generation become the preferences of the second generation and they become irrelevant to the third generation." That is what happens and the story of Veggie Tales.  Yeah, if ever there was an organization that would be immune to drift it would be Veggie Tales and yet when you read Phil Vischer's words or hear him speak he talks about this very significant and severe mission drift that happened at one point in getting up at a company meeting giving the mission and then having the president who had been in his role for two years, stand up next and say, "Well if that's what this is all about, I need to opt out." There was misalignment between the founder and between the CEO and it just happens so much. So to your point, I love that quote from Russ about there is no success without a successor. I think for all of us to realize we are real erasers for a limited amount of time, and our success is not actually to be judged on how well we run our leg of the race. It is how well we collectively do at a bigger and better race. 

 -And even in Simon Sinek, his recent book, not writing from a faith perspective, but his book The Infinite Game, he talks about this idea about we all want to be part of something that extends beyond ourselves Beyond just our moment. And I think he is writing that what is true for business for secular business? It should be so much more true for those of us that believe that this is not all there is and there is a movement that started at the resurrection of Jesus Christ that is going to continue. We are part of a better story that is so much more important than just our little moment of time. So let's remember the bigger race that we're part of. Let's remember the bigger story and then let's steward our leg of the race really really well. And for all of us to say, who and when am I going to pass that baton and I just love that quote from Russ. 

-I think the one more way in which there is a lot of thoughtful and careful and prayerful focus right on a mission that goes beyond just our particular moment and stewardship of it. I think I've heard a few recent quotes on legacy. I think John Maxwell said something along the lines as, "Legacy is not something you leave for people. It's something you leave in people." And I think Mark Batterson said something along the lines of, "Legacy is not what you accomplish, but what others accomplish because of you and pouring into them and that encouragement." And because we all we talk often with our clients about legacy, and what do you want your legacy to be? And it's so important to have something that lasts way beyond our lifetime and for eternity to the third and fourth generation and beyond. And it's fun to be a part of organizations. And isn't it? That have that mission true desire. At Hope International that I know you all do that we have at Ronald Blue Trust. And Simon Sinek talks about that. Your why. What makes you get out of bed every day on both the good days and the tough days to keep doing what you're doing. It's got to be something more than just a paycheck. It's a passion. It's a fire that's burning inside that you just want to keep doing. Doing and just keep sharing with the world. So, I really do love that. And I think you might have mentioned in the book, "The second law of thermodynamics states that left alone things degenerate over time rather than come together. The phenomenon is observable and physical entities and organizations alike." And you're so right, Peter. If we don't acknowledge drift, is that where organizations get in trouble? 

-If they don't even acknowledge that there is drift, that's where the trouble is right there. You'll just see it right after that. Right? It'll just happen. So as we started doing the research, our methodology has been very similar that we never write about things that we claim to be experts in. We use it as an opportunity to go and find experts in the fields and learn from them and then synthesize and try to create a counterfactual and say what did they do differently as a result of that? And as we were finding these organizations that had this example of staying on mission of staying mission true. As we started to interview them and visiting with them, the first thing that struck us is this was not a new conversation. When we started saying about how have you stayed on mission? They're like, "Let me tell you where I saw mission drift and let me tell you what we're doing to make sure that's not our story." So the first way to prevent mission drift is to acknowledge the prevalence and reality of it. Yeah. And then, that prompts you to take the steps to make the actions so that that is not your story. But it was not a new topic of conversation as we had conversations. And I would just say for anyone that is part of a mission-driven organization nonprofit or for-profit, doesn't matter. If your mission matters, please do not think that you're founding story is a sufficient safeguard. Please do not think your personality or conviction is a sufficient safeguard. We got to do more than that to preserve what matters most.
 
-And I would encourage our listeners. It's a great book. Read it. Read Mission Drift. Read the Gift of Disillusionment. There's also another one that Peter and Chris co-wrote that was kind of a follow-on to Mission Drift called Rooting For Rivals in about being on the same team that we're trying to advance God's kingdom together instead of... Maybe just touch on that before we get close to wrapping up here. On Rooting for Rivals. What was the key theme of that book from your and Chris's research with that book and as that kind of followed on from Mission Drift a couple years later and Rooting for Rivals? 

-Yeah, so if I were to ask you or the listeners, what the relationship is among churches in your community or nonprofits.

-I'd say there are some silos out there. 

-There are a few, and yet then you look at what Jesus prayed in John 17 the night before he went to the cross and he was praying something very specific for those who would believe in his name. And his prayer was that they would be brought to complete unity. And he says then the world will know that you have sent me. Like our witness to the world is somehow connected to the way that we treat each other and our picture of unity and my experience at least in the nonprofit space is there are sometimes that we view others that are doing great work in similar spaces as our competition. We look at those and with a Christian veneer of nice resent their success and accolades feeling I wish that that was for me. We don't stand and celebrate and in many ways that spirit of competition is undermining our collective impact. It's undermining our credibility to a watching world. And I think this is a moment when there is a whole lot of division. What if, what if followers of Jesus could paint a different picture for the world? What if they would look at us and say, "Man, they have each other's back. They are cheering for each other. They are rooting for each other. I want to learn more about that." And so in many ways that's really the premise of what inhibits us from being each other's biggest fans in this. What inhibits that. And we've identified two major worldview questions. Do we believe in a world of abundance or scarcity? If we believe in a world of scarcity, we're always going to see the success of someone else as meaning less for us. Right. But I believe in a God who took five loaves, two fish, fed the masses, and had enough that there were leftovers. I don't believe in a world of scarcity. And then the second question is do we believe that our calling is to the logo that is on our business card or to the kingdom of God? Do we believe that our allegiance is to our organization and ends at the organizational boundaries or do we believe it expands to the full expansive Kingdom of God? And so I believe the real transformative work in the world is for those individuals that believe in a worldview of abundance and on a mission that is about the Kingdom of God and nothing less and I believe that's where the real exciting work is happening in our world. Those collaborative approaches. That collective impact that rooting for rivals approach.

-And I know another organization or a few organizations that have done that in the work of Bible translation.  With some of our friends at Wycliffe Bible translators and E10 and Illuminations that's there at the Museum of the Bible in Washington DC of these translation groups coming together where for years before they had kind of operated kind of in a way in a silo doing great work and but similar work. But hey, how can we come together and see the Bible fully translated in our lifetime? And Bible translation as you're aware is accelerating in a pace technology obviously helps that the world's never seen. So that all people will be able to hear all, the billions of people will be able to hear the good news of Jesus Christ and be able to accept him or choose not to but the opportunity to hear the gospel, right? 

-That was one of the early stories that prompted us to start writing this book and doing more because I believe that example is not just confined to Bible translation. Right? I think the same spirit of that the same approach is going to have an impact in a variety of other sectors. But the data is really clear on that and I was talking to a foundation executive that had three separate Bible translation organizations pitch their foundation to fund a translation of the Bible in the same language for the same people group. He said this is not an efficient use of resources. And that was early in the time of coming together and Illuminations. And so after several years of partnering meeting together every month, partnering together, being open, sourcing information, dividing the languages that have not yet been translated initially, they were on the on track to see the bible translated into every language on Earth by the year 2150. They now believe that's going to be accomplished by the year 2033. 

-Amazing.
 
-They took 117 years off of the pace of progress. Right. Because they were willing to say let's do this together. Let's have a vision that is possible to achieve on our own, but let's have that vision that we could accomplish together. And I think that example, what if those organizations in poverty alleviation would have the same approach? What if those trying to combat human trafficking would have to say approach? What would happen in all these other spheres, if that were our approach and I just know impact would be accelerated. And I'd love to see the church at the forefront of that sort of creative collaborative approach. It's not about the name above the church. It's about the name above all names and that's Jesus Christ. And that is how it is going to happen. 

-So would you start out sharing some of the key themes from your and Chris Horsts's newest book, The Gift of Disillusionment and During Hope for Leaders After Idealism Fades? 

-You know, Chris and I, I really enjoy writing with Chris. It is a gift and this is our fourth book that we've written together, The Gift of Disillusionment. And we started writing it in 2019, and unlike the other projects that we've worked on together, we started without a very clear framework. We started with a problem and the problem was how does anyone continue to serve for a lifetime? We in our career, you know you start with this element of idealism, and then you get involved then you realize this is far more difficult than we ever imagined. And you have challenge after challenge. And in our work, working in the 17 countries around the world where we serve, there has been a lot of challenges. And so we started thinking about this in 2019 without any idea of what the next few years were going to bring. When it wasn't just challenge after challenge, but it was an acceleration. And it does feel like the headlines have just been dominated by bad news, doom and gloom. And if headlines can believe, can be believed, if headlines are the only story, we have every reason to lose hope. We have every reason to say this is just too much. I'm giving up I'm checking out. But we don't believe that's the full story and we started this by trying to identify our colleagues around the world who have had this long obedience in the same direction. That have decades of service. At least 20, but many of them over 40 years of service, and asking them a question. Despite disappointment, despite challenge, what has kept you going? What keeps you here? And so our colleagues in Haiti that have dealt with challenge after challenge. Individuals in India that had been able to, quote-unquote achieve the American dream and then chose to go back, what causes them to continue to love and serve even in the midst of incredible challenges? So that is what we started researching. And the stories were an absolute gift in the season that we're in. So even though pandemics and even though challenges, we were saturating ourselves with stories of hope and faithful service and courage in the midst of all that is going on. And I believe our world does not hear enough of those stories. We need to elevate those stories that our world needs to hear. So that really was the fun of writing the book. 

-And what we found is as we were interviewing these individuals, they kept pointing us again and again to a curious Old Testament prophet, that I had never really studied much about. It's an individual that is often quoted. In fact, it's the most quoted verse in the Old Testament. Jeremiah 29:11 when it talks about for I know the plans that I have you for you declares the Lord's and hope and a future. But when you actually look at what was happening in Jeremiah's life when those words repent, it is not words that are easy to say. It was a time when things felt hopeless. It was a time when the world felt like it was falling apart. It was a time when the nation and the world was having all of these challenges and yet when you actually look at the life of Jeremiah, it is a fascinating count of long-term faithful obedience and our global friends pointed us to that example, even as they were living out their own example. So really the fun of the book from my perspective is just an opportunity to say doom and gloom? Yes. But there are unbelievable, valuable stories that need to be told of hope and courage and long-term faithful obedience in a way that I want to live. I want to live with that same perspective. 

-Peter, that's so great. And what you're talking about is we have to acknowledge. There is the darkness in the world in the hard things in the world, but John 1, Jesus came, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness will never overcome it. And that is our hope even in the midst of great pain and tragedy and suffering. One follow-up question with the folks that you interviewed for the Gift of Disillusionment book, were those leaders of organizations domestic, international, combination? Who were those some of those leaders that you interviewed for the book? 

-So we intentionally tried to get a wide variety of individuals that have very different backgrounds. So we talk about individuals truly just as diverse as they come. One that was the chauffeur for Yasser Arafat. One that grew up in the Philippines. One that is eradicating malaria in a particular region in Zambia and some domestic as well. Chris Brewster who is reforming education and Oklahoma City in a very innovative way. And what I'll never forget early on in the interviews, I was on one of these calls and literally I heard almost verbatim certain things from these interviews that the context could not be more diverse. Their backgrounds could not be more diverse and yet the themes that they shared about long-term faithful obedience and long-term service and what sustains that service, I couldn't believe the similarity. I couldn't believe that it was it was the core elements were the same on that. And that was really the fun of writing. It is realizing incredibly different backgrounds. Domestic, international, nonprofit, for-profit, male, female. Like incredible difference in backgrounds and yet commonality of themes really around what sustains hope. So yeah, intentionally diverse group, but it was just an absolute gift to hear these same themes repeated again and again from individuals that had a lot of differences but a similar journey from idealism to disillusionment, and then not giving into cynicism but finding a source of enduring hope. Love it.
 
-Long Obedience in the Same Direction I believe that was a book by Eugene Peterson and another friend Mark Batterson, writes in one of his books that in that same vein that we can overestimate what we can accomplish in two years, but we underestimate what God can do in and through us in five years, 10 years, 20 years, 40 years. And it sounds like you heard those stories of people who persevered and leaders who persevered in you know from the mountaintops to the valleys and everything in between. 

-Can I just add on it because I find it so interesting from our vantage point, there's a lot of individuals that jump into service. And it doesn't matter if it's your service at your local church or it's joining an international organization or it's the mid-career professional that makes the pivot to go into a nonprofit setting. My experience is in years two to four, after doing this, the idealism fades. You reach the point where idealism is not enough. But that actually is a wonderful thing. You're letting go of the illusion of what this was going to be like. You're letting go of those things that just aren't true. And we see that you've got to face that, you've got to hit the end of your idealism if you're going to sustain a lifetime of service. So exactly as you said, we're looking for those individuals that hadn't just served two, four or 10 years. We wanted those individuals that their service could be measured in decades. 

-Yeah, Charles Dickens famously opens his classic book The Tale of Two Cities with these words, "It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. It was the age of wisdom. It was the age of foolishness. It was the epic of belief. Epic of incredulity. It was the season of light. It was the season of darkness. It was the spring of hope. It was the winter of despair." And I came across this piece that just gave me some perspective personally early in the Covid-19 pandemic in 2020. And you may have seen this and it's out there I think on the internet, but like imagine you were born in 1900 when you're 14 World War I begins, and it ends when your age 18. 20 million people dead, 22 people million 22 million people dead from World War I. Soon after a global pandemic, the Spanish Flu appears killing 50 million people worldwide. You're still alive and you're 20. You hit age 29 you survived the global economic crisis that started with the collapse of the New York Stock Exchange causing inflation unemployment and famine. You hit 33 years old, and the Nazis come to power. You hit 39 years old World War II begins and it ends when you're 45 years old and 60 million people die in World War II and another six million or so Jews die in the Holocaust. In and then when you're age 52, the Korean War begins. Your age 64, the Vietnam War begins and ends when you're 75. So a child born in 1985 thinks his grandparents have no idea how difficult life is, but yet they've survived several wars and catastrophes that I just mentioned there today. We have all the comforts in the new world amid this new pandemic, but we complain because we need to wear masks or we complain we need to stay confined in our homes where we have food and electricity, running water, Wi-Fi, Netflix. None of that existed back in the day, but humanity survived those circumstances and never lost their joy of living. And I love this at the end of it a small change in our perspective, can generate miracles. We should be thankful we're alive. We should do everything. We need to protect and help each other. And that's what you all are doing at Hope International. And that's what we do as well at Ronald Blue Trust is coming alongside people. How can we help? How can we serve and just looking out for each other? But what would you share Peter, and closing on just that idea of perspective from what you've experienced personally and as the leader of Hope these last two to three years in the midst of this pandemic, that idea of perspective and putting it all in perspective?
 
-Yeah. Two thoughts. Yeah. One is Camille Melki has had a series of challenging situations in Lebanon and challenge after challenge after challenge. And he had this line that just jumped out. He said, "I used to ask God why is all of this happening? He said, "I very rarely got an answer about why is all this happening?" But then he said, "I asked a different question. I say, God what would it look like for me to respond in such a way that you get the glory? How can I respond?" And then he said, "I better have a pen in my hand because the answer is very very long." And I think that's a better question to ask in the midst of all of this. What does it look like to love God and to love our neighbors? And when you ask that question, I think you are going to need to have a pen in hand because the answer is going to be very very long. And then other thing in terms of perspective again, it's just so formed by the recent kind of learning more about Jeremiah, but challenges, nations falling, attack from invaders, death threats, assault, being left to die in a cistern. I mean he had challenge after challenge and yet in John 17 at John and Jeremiah chapter 17, it says something really clear. It said, "Blessed are those whose trust is in the Lord." Like that's what we ultimately place our trust in. Not in situations. Not in governments. Not even in peace coming in the way your timeline that we would have, but to say God you are over all. My trust is in you that is where I find my strength. That is where I find my courage, and that is where I find the answer to this question of what can I do? What can I do to respond in this moment that we are living in? So challenges? Yeah. Guess what's going to happen in 2023? There's going to be more challenges and the places where Hope International serves. and guess what our response is going to be? God, how can we respond in this moment of time in a way that people come to see you and your goodness? That's how we want to respond. 

-Amen to that. Well, I want to close with these two scriptures that have really been to that have just been sustaining for me and I've shared with others but Romans 12:12, "Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. And then this other one from other Old Testament profit in Isaiah. Isaiah 58 verses 11 and 12 says this, "The Lord will guide you always he will satisfy your needs in a sun scorched land and will strengthen your frame. You will be like a well-watered garden, like a spring whose waters never fail. Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and raise up age old foundations and you will be called repairer of broken walls, restorer of streets with dwellings." Are those encouraging? And this Isaiah was writing this thousands of years ago in the midst of very tough challenging times. Nations fallen and everything like that. So Peter, thank you so much for being with us on our Wisdom For Wealth. For Life. podcast today. It has been a real treat and a joy and we appreciate all of our listeners tuning in today. So, thank you Peter.
 
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