How God Can Do The Impossible With Mark Batterson

In this episode, we take a trip to Washington DC. Ronald Blue Trust's senior private wealth advisor, David Campaigne, talks with bestselling author and pastor, Mark Batterson. In the heart of DC, Mark Batterson has helped lead many projects to benefit the community. In this conversation, he shares the stories behind some of the initiatives and how God can do a lot with a little.

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The information in these podcasts is provided for general educational purposes only.  It is not intended as specific individual advice. The clients’ experience may not be representative of the experience of other clients, and they are also not indicative of future performance or success. Opinions expressed may not be those of Ronald Blue Trust.

Trust and investment management accounts and services offered by Ronald Blue Trust, Inc. are not insured by the FDIC or any other federal government agency, are not deposits or other obligations of, nor guaranteed by any bank or bank affiliate, and are subject to investment risk, including possible loss of the principal amount invested.

Transcript

- [Narrator] Welcome to the "Wisdom for Wealth For Life" podcast. Let's bridge the gap between your faith and your finances. At Ronald Blue Trust, we apply biblical wisdom and technical expertise to help you make wise financial decisions. Our goal is to help you leave a lasting legacy. In this podcast, you'll hear inspiring stories, practical tips, and encouragement from the Ronald Blue Trust family with special guests along the way. Welcome to the "Wisdom for Wealth For Life" podcast. In this episode, we take a trip to the Capital, Washington DC. Ronald Blue Trust's Senior Private Wealth Advisor, David Campaigne talks with bestselling author and Pastor, Mark Batterson. In the heart of DC, Mark Batterson has helped lead many projects to benefit the community. In this conversation, he shares the stories behind some of the initiatives and how God can do a lot with a little. Let's listen in now.

- Well, Mark, what I'd like to do in our time today with those folks who are listening in is have you kind of take us on a journey from 27 years ago, 1996, when you and Laura launched National Community Church. So would you share just kind of the dream where that started planted in your heart and Laura's heart? And then maybe also then transition into how Ebenezers Coffee House came to be, because most churches that I know of do not start Coffee houses.

- Yes, yes, well, let me say this. It's not about the name over the church door, it's about the name above all names. And so every, we need lots of different kinds of churches, 'cause there are lots of different kinds of people. But I think God wants to write a unique story through every church, every business, every nonprofit, every one of our lives. So it's his story, history with a hyphen in it. And so I share this in that spirit that for us being in DC we felt like we wanted to be in the middle of the marketplace. We wanted to reach people that would not traditionally darken a church door. And so we started meeting in movie theaters, which felt like a safe place for a dangerous message. And, but then that conviction grew. And it really comes out of this little story in John four where Jesus has a conversation with a woman at the well. Wells were natural gathering places in ancient culture. And so we figured coffee houses are postmodern wells, what if we created a place where church and community could cross paths? And so we started Ebenezers Coffee House and I will say this for the record, the Holy Spirit plus caffeine equals awesome, pretty fun for 16 years I officed right above Ebenezers. And then what's unique about our business model is we give every penny a profit to kingdom causes that we care about. And I think for that reason, the Lord has blessed it, been voted number one coffee house in DC multiple times, and we just started roasting our own coffee. We'll start wholesaling it. And so a fun future in front of us in terms of the coffee side.

- Oh, that's awesome, Mark. And I remember when Kristen brought me to some of those early services you met in Union Station.

- Yes.

- But then that closed down for you and had to navigate and pivot to something different, right?

- Yeah, yeah.

- That's led maybe into some of these other expressions of National Community Church with the Miracle Theater and most recent now this capital turnaround. So maybe share a little bit of that. So what happened, it seemed like a door closed, what was going on at Union Station. But then God opened something different in the next season.

- Yeah, yeah. So I don't wanna overshare, but backstory is critical here. In 1996 when we started with that core group of 19 people, you're praying like it depends on God, 'cause that's all you've got. And so there was a moment in August of 96 felt led to pray a perimeter around Capitol Hill, turned into a 4.7 mile prayer walk. And I wasn't praying for property, was praying for people. But we now own six properties on that prayer circle, including the city block that we're in right now, that, you know, it's a 100,000 square feet, less than a mile from the Capitol, which is hard to come by. But it's no coincidence, I think it's providence, that prayer is how we write history before it happens. And so, so when the doors closed at Union Station, that's what then was a catalyst at us exploring real estate and property. We never thought we would own anything, David. I mean, you know, the cost of living and the cost of property here is pretty unbelievable. But when God gives a vision, in my experience, he makes provision. And I think the miracle is in the house. And it's pretty amazing the way that the Lord is provided. We're in a debt-free position as a church, which really is pretty miraculous. And we are just grateful. And I would say one more thing there that one of those other core convictions is that God's gonna bless us in proportion to how we give to missions and care for the poor in our city. If we're doing what is near and dear to the heart of God, I'm not worried about our bottom line because God's got our back. And so, you know, we build a $5 million Dream Center in Ward seven, and we have really prioritized missions. We've gone on 300 mission trips and given a lot of money to missions. And so I think that's in part why the Lord is provided, because whatever he gives to us, we're gonna try to give it away as best we can.

- Yeah, it's never just for us.

- Yes.

- You talk about this, I think in double blessing. It's you flip the blessing.

- Yep.

- You all were blessed in your early days and now you all do that to bless God's kingdom work going on in other local churches and other things, whether it's here.

- Yeah.

- Around the country, even around the world.

- Yeah, I think it's worth feeding the meter right there.

- Yes.

- And parking for a minute. Flip the blessing is really one of those things that has become a lifestyle for Laura and I, and it's really pretty simple. We take good inventory of how others have blessed us, and then we try to do that same thing for others. So it was early on that as a church plant, we received a $5,000 gift that helped us move into the movie theaters at Union Station. David, we have probably given more than 100 $5,000 gifts. It's special to us to give $5,000 gifts because it was such a miracle for us. But then I would even say on a personal note, like if someone gives us a gift card, someone else is getting a gift card. If someone gives us a car, we're not gonna sell ours. We're gonna flip the blessing for someone else. And it becomes so fun. I remember when someone early on, we couldn't afford a vacation. And I mean, it hits me, I haven't thought of this in a long time, but someone blessed us and sent us on a vacation. And the joy that we have found at doing that same thing for others, Jesus said it's more blessed to give than to receive. And so when you flip the blessing, oh, it just, it's so fun. It's not even fair, right? It's just the joy of giving and doing it in a way that's meaningful.

- Mark, I wanna circle back, pun intended to your Circle Maker book that you wrote in 2011. You had written a few books before that, but the Circle Maker really struck a chord and it became an instant New York Times bestseller, over a million copies sold and continuing. And the big idea and message from that book that has inspired me and so many others is this concept of dreaming big, praying hard and thinking long. And the miracles that you share about in this book from your own life and other people's lives, would you just have an example of one or two miracles that you've just seen personally, experienced personally, that just would encourage and inspire and.

- Yeah.

- Inspire us.

- Yeah, well, I would say, first of all, show me the size of your dream. And I'll show you the size of your God that I think sometimes we dream at kind of the outer limits of human ability, but by definition, a God-sized dream is gonna be beyond your ability and beyond your resources. And so go after a dream that's destined to fail without divine intervention, because then God gets the glory for it. So this idea of dreaming big, I think is a big deal. And by the way, it's not even accomplishing the dream, it's who you become in the process, 'cause a big dream will keep you on your knees and it will keep you praying hard and thinking long. And for the record, we tend to overestimate what we can accomplish in a year, but we underestimate what God can do in 10 or 20. So, you know, in terms of miracles, David, you know, I'll put on my theology hat for a moment and just say this, that there are people who would say, "I've never experienced a miracle". And I would push back on that and say, "with all due respect, you have never not", you're on a planet that's spinning at a 1000 miles an hour, speeding through space at 67,000 miles per hour. So even on a day when you didn't get much done, you did travel 1.6 million miles through space. So I don't know anybody that, you know, kneels next to their bed at night and went, Lord, I wasn't sure we were gonna make the full rotation, but you did it again, you kept us in orbit. Like no one prays that way. So we already believe God for the big things. I think it's about believing God for everything else. And so there are a few miracles that, you know, really defy human logic. Even the crack house that we turned into Ebenezers Coffee House, four people offered more money for it than we did. Two of them were real estate developers. And we get it. Well, we did circle it in prayer for five years. And I wanna be careful here. Every prayer has to pass the twofold litmus test, has to be in the will of God and for the glory of God. So if it's not, it's a non-starter, but if it is, now it's game on. And there's something that's just so exciting. The X factor, the it factor is inviting God into the equation of everything that we do and everything that we are. So we've experienced some real estate miracles. Do I have time to share one personal? Okay, here's the short version. I had severe asthma for 40 years, you know this, my first memory was an asthma attack. I had prayed 100s of times that God would heal me. And that prayer was never answered. I played basketball with an inhaler in my sock, went to sleep with an inhaler under my pillow, prayed a bold prayer, July 2nd, 2016. And I don't know how to explain this, which is in part what makes it a miracle. I have touched an inhaler from that day to this day, I believe in a God who does miracles. And I think the way that you steward a miracle is by believing God for bigger and better miracles. And I wanna be really careful because, you know, my wife Laura has also walked through two bouts with cancer in the last six years. So it's not like we have some kind of immunity card. You know, life is complicated and there's pain and suffering. I'm not denying any of that. I think our ultimate healing is in heaven. But I also believe in a God who does miracles. And if we do what they did in the Bible, I think God does what he did, that he is still a God who saves, heals, and delivers. And I just hope someone listening that that's gonna plant a seed of faith. And Oswald Chambers said, "let God be as original with others as he was with you". So I'm a data point of one. And and in my experience, there's a reason why in the gospels, none of the miracles happen the same way. I think this is not about us telling God how to do what God does, this is about us exercising our faith and believing that he is able to do immeasurably more than all we can ask or imagine according to his power that's at work within us, and so I think there's something in there for us to, you know, white knuckle by faith and believe God a little bit bigger.

- I love that. And Mark, dreaming big, praying hard and thinking long, there'll be setbacks along the way. Like you said, there's no immunity card. You and Laura have walked through tough things and we all walk through that. And Jesus said that in John 16, right? In this world you will have trouble.

- [Mark] Yeah.

- But.

- [Mark] Yeah.

- But take heart, I've overcome the world. So like that healing and those miracles are always happening all the time. And then some people don't get healed on this side of eternity from cancer, let's say, or things like that. But maybe comment on that and some of the, just the hard part, like still practically, how do I dream big and pray hard and think long when there are the setbacks? And I think I've heard you say this is the hard part, right? Don't put a period where God's putting a comma.

- Yeah.

- And you need to discern in the Holy Spirit.

- Yeah, yeah, well we're wading into deep waters, but we don't believe in happily ever after. We believe in something bigger and better and longer and stronger. We believe in happily forever after. And so there is a dimension of reality on the other side of that space time continuum that the Bible calls heaven. Do I fully understand it? No, because all I've ever known is the four dimensions of space time. But what happens, David, is God is so good, God is so great, but then we anthropomorphize God, we create God in our image. And I think we have to be really careful that there is a God who is not going to fit in the logical constraints of our left brain, let alone the four dimensions of space time. The good news there is his thoughts are higher than our thoughts, his ways are higher than our ways. And last time I checked the co moving distance from one side of the universe to the other is 93 billion light years. In other words, God is 93 billion light years beyond what you could ask or imagine. So your best thought on your best day falls 93 billion light years short of how good and how great God really is. And that's kind of how I live my life. That's how I exercise my faith. I want to have holy confidence, but I'm also gonna operate in a humility that the more you know, the more you know how much you don't know.

- [David] Yeah.

- And so that is the human experience. That is the reality that we live in. And so I'll say one more thing. There are moments where you have to forgive reality. It it is what it is. Charles Spurgeon said, "I've learned to kiss the wave that throws me against the rock of ages". And so life is this roller coaster and we've experienced low lows, we've experienced some high highs, we've experienced failure. Our first church plant did not go according to plan.

- And that's what got you to DC.

- And it is. So I'm in retrospect, I'm grateful for the failures. And honestly, David, some of that pain and suffering, I wouldn't wanna go through it again, including a near death experience where I spent two days on a respirator and there are better ways to lose 25 pounds in a week than than ruptured intestines. I'm gonna go on record and say that.

- And you were young then.

- And I was young.

- Yeah.

- But I would also say I wouldn't trade it. It changed my life. And I have a scar to prove what I went through. But you don't take life for granted after that kind of experience.

- Oh, Amen, and you talk about this and Win The Day. And I lost my parents in their 70s, younger than I thought. But time is measured in minutes and life is measured in moments. This concept out of Psalm 90 that's taken on a deeper meaning just being personally and maybe for you too, in that experience of you could have already been on the other side of eternity when your intestines ruptured in your late 20s, right? But that's that kind of that both and of teach me Lord to number my days that I may gain a heart of wisdom, may come to 70 years, maybe 80, if my strength endures. I look at that verse now. Anything above 80 with good, physical, emotional, spiritual health, that's all bonus time after age 80.

- Yes, yeah, we're living in bonus time. And I think it was Ashley Montague who said, "I wanna die young, at a ripe old age". So we cannot control our circumstances nine times outta 10, but we can experience the joy of the Lord, live with a holy confidence and just entrust our future to the Lord. I have a couple of rules of thumb, when things go bad, don't play the victim. And when things go good, don't play God. And I think we live sort of somewhere in between good and bad and we find our way forward there.

- Oh, love it. As we're getting close to wrapping up our conversation today, you've shared this in your books and your talks and about the four core values of the Batterson family and they're gratitude, humility, generosity, and courage. And as you know, in our time together, our bedrock verse as a company at Ronald Blue Trust, first Timothy six 17 and 19, where the Apostle Paul is talking to his protege, Timothy instruct those who are rich in this present world, not to be conceited, to set their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but put their hope in God who richly supplies us with everything, right? For our enjoyment and instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, generous, willing to share. And that's where you really take hold of the life that's truly life. So would you just share a little bit about your and Laura's journey of generosity in that, and again, it's time, talents, and treasure, but maybe even in kind of that idea on the financial side of the concept. I know you've shared with me and I think talked about of what if we were reverse tithe one day, like live on 10% and give away 90%, maybe share the journey.

- Yeah.

- From when you all got married, planting this church and kind of where you are now and going into the next season.

- Yeah, well, I would say the generosity starts with gratitude. And that's pretty critical. The tall mood, the Jewish commentary on the Old Testament says that if you receive a blessing from God, but fail to give thanks, it's as if you have stolen it from God. So I think we've gotta be careful not to shoplift from God. Every good and perfect gift comes from above, from the Father of Heavenly lights. And so I believe that. And just on a very practical level, David, Laura and I, we Sabbath from sundown Sunday to Sundown Monday because we pastor a church. But we usually begin our Sabbath by sharing our gratitude journals with each other. And that gratitude feeds our marriage. And I think it feeds generosity. So we did make a pre-decision when we got married that we would never not tithe, that God would get the first 10%. Then I read that biography about JC Penney and I saw that by the end of his life, that the founder of the department store by his name was giving 90% living off a 10%. And we set a goal. And the way you move towards that goal as you give a greater percentage back to God. So with every book contract, it's almost a game. Like what percentage can we give? So we created a nonprofit, a foundation in a sense that we made pre decisions with every contract we're gonna give this percentage here. And I think the Lord has honored that. And it really started, David, with my life goal list. And I originally had getting goals and there was a moment where we flipped those to giving goals. Now you have to make more, to give more, but it somehow shifted the motivation that at the end of the day, success is not how much you make, it's how much you give. And so we have just strived towards that and we have learned to love it. And so when God blesses us, we feel like he doesn't do it to raise our standard of living, does it to raise our standard of giving. And we've been on this journey together. So we've navigated over the last decade plus, okay, let's plan for retirement, let's be wise in terms of saving for a future.

- But do your giving while you're living.

- But do your giving while you're living.

- So you know where it's going.

- And we're not going to turn down the generosity piece. We're gonna believe that actually as we turn up the generosity that the Lord's gonna continue to provide. So what a, that journey of generosity, which is kind of the language that we really picked up from you and from the weekend we spent together, journey of generosity. What a fun journey to be on. And we don't take it for granted. You know, we, it's all from God and it's all for God. And whether it's the widow with two mights or a rich young ruler who had a hard time letting go, either way, it's all from God and it's all for God.

- And Jesus said it so well, where your treasure is, there your heart will be also, the heart follows the treasure. Because if I'm remembering right, it's not the dollar amount. I think some people get caught up in the, how much am I giving dollar wise? But it's where the heart is behind that because share what, you know, your first check that you did tithe check and when you were starting out was tough to give.

- It was, it was, 'cause we weren't self-supporting as a church until year three.

- [David] Yeah.

- But we gave that first $50 check to missions and you kind of had to pry it out of my hands. But we stood on a promise given it'll be given on you, a good measure, press down, shaken together, running over, it'll be poured into your lap, for with the measure you use, it will be measured unto you. You cannot break the law of measures, it will make or break you. And so we gave that first $50 check to missions and we've now given $25 million to kingdom causes. And that's with, for the first 15 years, a church that's 80% single, 20 something. So, but it's a conviction, David, that we're gonna move in that direction. And I don't want this to come across as neat and clean and easy. And there are still moments where can we really afford to give this? And is this the right decision?

- But that's the good tension of a steward.

- It is.

- It's a good tension.

- And you never get past the tension.

- Right.

- But, that this idea, that law of measures and law of treasures where your heart is. Can I just share one thing, really personal and practical? As a pastor, they probably is a little unsanctified competitive streak in me having played basketball in college. And I was struggling a little bit with some churches that were next door neighbors. And the Lord convicted me like it should be as easy to pray for a church that's four blocks away, it's four states away. And you know what we did? We started investing in any and every church plant in the Greater DC area. And here's what happened when we started making a financial investment in other churches, we weren't giving them a check, David. We were giving them a piece of our heart. And so now our heart is in dozens of other churches, some of whom are blocks from us. And we've come to realize that it's about the kingdom. We're on the same team. But isn't it interesting that, that the way we leverage money will change our hearts one way or the other. There is no denying it, there's no sidestepping it, I think it's true for everybody. And so that law of measures and law of treasures is so critical.

- And you said this in double blessing, our giving is someone else's miracle. And again, regardless of the dollar amount, it's the, would you maybe just talk on that? Like our giving is someone else's miracle and maybe we even never know about it on this side of eternity. That we just did it. The Lord prompted us in his spirit and we just do it.

- Yeah.

- Sometimes we hear the stories back, sometimes we don't.

- Yeah, and that's kind of a fun little off ramp because there's this story where the little boy gives five loaves and two fish. Well, here's the deal, five plus two equals seven. We all know that, in our hands.

- But if you put what you have in your hands into the hands of God, five plus two doesn't equal seven anymore, five plus two equals 5,000 remainder 12. And so this little boy's generosity, think about it, turns into a miracle for 5,000 people. And that's the beauty to me of generosity. Like in my hands, it only adds up, in his hands, it multiplies and it becomes a miracle for people I don't even know. And so that's the exciting part of giving that when you give, all bets are off, it can become a miracle. And then don't miss this little fact that there's more left over than they started with. And it's kind of one of those only God moments. And so I still want to get a shirt that says five plus two equals 5,000 remainder 12. I haven't done it yet. But that's the math that we operate with personally. And that's the math that we've learned to operate with as a church.

- Amen, and you can't, none of us can take this with us. We can just send it on ahead.

- [Mark] Yeah.

- Jesus isn't against treasures, storing up treasures, he just wants to make sure we're storing them up in the right place, in eternity.

- [Mark] Yeah.

- Go ahead.

- You know that years ago I met Stanley Tam.

- [David] Yes.

- Stanley was the founder of the United States Plastic Corporation, made God his Senior Partner, I think it was January 15th, 1955, became a salaried employee of the company he started, gave more than $125 million to kingdom causes. I had the joy of having a conversation with Stanley on his 107th birthday. If you've ever had someone pray for you who is 107 years old, that that prayer, I will never forget. It profoundly impacted my life. But I remember the meal that we shared and Stanley said two things to us. One, God's shovel is bigger than yours. In other words, keep giving and God's gonna provide. And two, he said, God can't reward Abraham yet. And then he paused for a moment like for effect. God can't reward Abraham yet because his seed is still multiplying. And so when we give, it's like planting seed in the ground and we plant water, God gives the increase and he multiplies it.

- Oh, Amen. It's like from the Hamilton musical, planting seeds in a garden I'll never get to see. But we still need to keep planting them.

- Love it.

- So, Amen.

- Well, Mark, thank you so much for being with us on this podcast. This has been a joy. It's always a joy to be with you. And I know our listeners are so encouraged and inspired by what you shared with us and just sharing your heart with us, so yeah.

- Well, thank you for helping Laura and I steward our finances and we are indebted to you and just so grateful to be a part of this larger family.

- Yeah, and it we're a part of a larger family, Amen. Well, let me close with just some words of scripture for us. This is outta numbers. This is, I pray this for you and Laura, for NCC and for all of us following the Lord that the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn his face towards you and give you his peace. Amen.

- Amen.

- [Narrator] Thank you so much for listening to the "Wisdom for Wealth For Life" podcast. If you're looking for financial advice, please contact us. Please visit ronblue.com. That's ronblue.com. Thank you for listening and please subscribe to wherever you listen to your podcasts. Trust and investment management accounts and services offered by Ronald Blue Trust Incorporated are not insured by the FDIC or any other federal government agency, are not deposits or other obligations of, nor guaranteed by any bank or bank affiliate, and are subject to investment risk, including possible loss of the principal amount invested. The information in these podcasts is provided for general educational purposes only. It's not intended as specific individual advice. The client's experience may not be representative of the experience of other clients, and they're also not indicative of future performance or success. Opinions expressed may not be those of Ronald Blue Trust.